![]() It really turned my worldview inside out. And that in life we are promised so little. Surely I deserve, you know, dot, dot, dot… And and so when I realized I couldn't, I didn't really that that wasn't the right that wasn't a framework that was going to guarantee me a single thing. And I had sort of adopted a de facto I work hard. And it was certainly the area of my intellectual study because I had written this book on the whole idea of "blessed," that like God will reward you if you have the right kind of faith. And so when I was all of a sudden the one with stage four colon cancer and wasn't likely going to survive the year, I really it really called into question the kind of natural optimism that I had about the idea that my life was always going to be the one that works out. And, you know, I really had no there was no dramatic health issue in my family. I had like a very clear plan of the, of the, illustrious life of a professor that I would lead and my many grateful graduate students. My 'before life' was I was trying to be a very shiny professor. Yeah, I, it was a very stark before and after in my life. And I was wondering if you could if you could tell us about that when you were 35 years old, about the diagnosis you received and about how that affected your life. And this is actually one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you today is because you know, during these times of uncertainty and pain and loss and grief that many people have experienced over the last two years, I think sometimes these can lead us to darker places, but sometimes miraculously, they can help us find better paths forward and know there's no one better than you, I was thinking, to talk to you about this because even before the pandemic, you went through an extraordinary and difficult experience where you had to grapple with pain and loss and grief and uncertainty. Well, it sounds like you found some ways to find silver linings in this difficult time. And strangely, that has meant that I am I'm sort of busier and connected in a different way than I was before. It became a different way to think about community and love and friendship. All of a sudden I was never meeting with anyone in person. On the other hand, it's also been a time of tremendous creativity because the second that we all had to change the way we do everything. So that's, I think that's just kind of always means that my mind and my heart is on all those of us who who get boxed out in a health crisis. ![]() It's been pretty bumpy, in part because I have like health precarity, because I have to live with chronic cancer. But what's it been like for you? Kate Bowler Well, you know, I was speaking of the strange times that we're in how have you been during this pandemic? It's been such a tumultuous time for everyone. It just happens to be the Surgeon General. So, yeah, you're a you're my go-to guy when I always think, why do we all need this so much? What is this craving inside of us to be known and to to know and and strangely, I know an expert about that. Because when I think of you, I always think of connection and all of your work on loneliness and just how much these interactions mean to all of us. Oh, well, that it's a it is a wonderful and strange thing that we can all still feel connected. Those are the two things I I feel when I when I hear your voice. And I feel like I've gotten to know you through your voice, which I associate with two qualities, with kindness and peace. But one of the things I really love about you is you reminded me how even in just a couple of interactions, you can really come to know someone well, or at least feel like you do and feel very comfortable with them, and that's certainly how I feel with you. I was thinking before we got on this recording that you and I have actually never met in person before, which seems strange when I thought about it because I feel like I know you, even though we've only had a few conversations. Kate, I am so excited for us to have this conversation. This episode holds truths we all need to hear. And today, we'll be talking about embracing the messiness and imperfection of life. I'd like to introduce you to Kate Bowler, Duke professor and New York Times best-selling author. ![]() I'm Vivek Murthy and I have the honor of serving as U.S.
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